<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/" xmlns:itunes="http://www.itunes.com/dtds/podcast-1.0.dtd" xmlns:rawvoice="http://www.rawvoice.com/rawvoiceRssModule/" > <channel><title>Comments on: Anti-immigration libertarians are treading in dangerous waters</title> <atom:link href="http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/</link> <description>Property - Prosperity - Peace</description> <lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 06:54:19 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator> <item><title>By: Faithkills</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-1900</link> <dc:creator>Faithkills</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:42:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-1900</guid> <description><![CDATA[&quot;So I pose this question to those libertarians who claim that as long as we have a colossal welfare state, we must have strict immigration controls: what’s your libertarian plan for accomplishing this?&quot;I think that&#039;s an incorrect construction.A solution would be to allow unlimited visas which carried neither political franchise nor entitlement eligibility. No one needs to provide &quot;papers&quot; UNLESS they want to avail themselves of the coercive apparatus of the state. No one is &#039;illegal&#039; for existing.]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So I pose this question to those libertarians who claim that as long as we have a colossal welfare state, we must have strict immigration controls: what’s your libertarian plan for accomplishing this?&#8221;</p><p>I think that&#8217;s an incorrect construction.</p><p>A solution would be to allow unlimited visas which carried neither political franchise nor entitlement eligibility. No one needs to provide &#8220;papers&#8221; UNLESS they want to avail themselves of the coercive apparatus of the state. No one is &#8216;illegal&#8217; for existing.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Punk Johnny Cash</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-304</link> <dc:creator>Punk Johnny Cash</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:01:28 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-304</guid> <description><![CDATA[&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Anti-immigration libertarians are treading in dangerous waters http://trunc.it/7lnj1&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Anti-immigration libertarians are treading in dangerous waters <a href="http://trunc.it/7lnj1" rel="nofollow">http://trunc.it/7lnj1</a></span></span></span></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: I&#8217;m Pro-Immigration and Pro-Open Borders</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-288</link> <dc:creator>I&#8217;m Pro-Immigration and Pro-Open Borders</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:27:10 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-288</guid> <description><![CDATA[[...] comment to Michael Barnett&#8217;s post Anti-immigration libertarians are treading in dangerous waters, [...]]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] comment to Michael Barnett&#8217;s post Anti-immigration libertarians are treading in dangerous waters, [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Stephan Kinsella</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-193</link> <dc:creator>Stephan Kinsella</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 00:19:23 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-193</guid> <description><![CDATA[Mike, my article was to provide a simple argument against unrestricted immigration. I did not imply that I agreed with it. I was trying to emphasize a few points: that the real owners of public property in (say) the US are the taxpayers, not outsiders; that there is no way for the state to manage the property in a way that satisfies all owners, short of returning it; that if an outsider is prevented from using the public property held by the state but owned by US citizens, this does not violate the rights of the outsiders, any more than if the natural owners were to forbid them use of it. But it&#039;s an argument about second- or third-bests, and one meant to focus on the main point: some private people (victims of the state) are the natural owners of or claimants to the property; the state is the legal owner, but should not be. Ideally it should dissolve itself and return the property to the real owners; but if it does not, the question arises as to what rules it should set if and so long as it does legally control the resource. I sought to tie in some implications of this notion to the immigration issue.In any case, let me be clear that I completely oppose any state laws or action that restricts immigration.]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, my article was to provide a simple argument against unrestricted immigration. I did not imply that I agreed with it. I was trying to emphasize a few points: that the real owners of public property in (say) the US are the taxpayers, not outsiders; that there is no way for the state to manage the property in a way that satisfies all owners, short of returning it; that if an outsider is prevented from using the public property held by the state but owned by US citizens, this does not violate the rights of the outsiders, any more than if the natural owners were to forbid them use of it. But it&#8217;s an argument about second- or third-bests, and one meant to focus on the main point: some private people (victims of the state) are the natural owners of or claimants to the property; the state is the legal owner, but should not be. Ideally it should dissolve itself and return the property to the real owners; but if it does not, the question arises as to what rules it should set if and so long as it does legally control the resource. I sought to tie in some implications of this notion to the immigration issue.</p><p>In any case, let me be clear that I completely oppose any state laws or action that restricts immigration.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Deus X. Nihilo</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-192</link> <dc:creator>Deus X. Nihilo</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 18:24:06 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-192</guid> <description><![CDATA[Mr. Barnett: You linked to Mr. N. Stephan Kinsella&#039;s LRC piece in your post.It would seem that Mr. Kinsella believes that, in taking the strict libertarian property rights view on which he bases his analysis, his is the correctly &quot;plumb line&quot; view. (Or at least &lt;em&gt;potentially&lt;/em&gt; the properly &quot;plumb line&quot; view.)However, he cites not only libertarian property rights and restitution, but also majoritarian sentiment as a proper basis for restitution to the taxpayer in the particular case of gov&#039;t borders, which is an interesting reason for why a &quot;plumb line&quot; Hoppean argues in favor of some kind of government control of borders.If we&#039;re going to take a strictly property rights view, I think it would be just as &quot;plumb line&quot; for libertarians to argue &lt;em&gt;against &lt;/em&gt;gov&#039;t control of borders on the basis that they seek to provide an &lt;em&gt;easement&lt;/em&gt; to immigrants, such as we would have in the absolutely stateless alternative universe.Why the granting of easement may be construed to be even more &quot;plumb line&quot; libertarian, and is thus the argument taxpaying libertarians should be making to taxpaying nonlibertarians, compared to Mr. Kinsella&#039;s argument, is that it logically concludes with &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; de facto advocating for gov&#039;t agents to run about the borders rounding people up for not having the proper papers and sticking them into KBR corporate welfare detention centers--perhaps for months at a time--before being shoved back to the other side of the border and back into the piss poor poverty-ridden conditions they fled from. (Much of which was created to some degree by one-sided NAFTA trade policy favoring politically connected U.S. business interests at the expense of Latin American business interests.)(BTW, I&#039;m well aware that Mr. Kinsella does &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; advocate for or condone the gov&#039;t actions/policies cited in the above paragraph. But as a &quot;plumb line&quot; anarcho-capitalist he knows full well that is frequently the logical conclusion of allowing some degree of gov&#039;t monopoly control over any property, whatever rationale he may be offering for it. Thus he must recognize the consistency of this logic with regard to gov&#039;t borders or else reduce himself to being a minarchist reformist on the immigration issue.)]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Barnett: You linked to Mr. N. Stephan Kinsella&#8217;s LRC piece in your post.</p><p>It would seem that Mr. Kinsella believes that, in taking the strict libertarian property rights view on which he bases his analysis, his is the correctly &#8220;plumb line&#8221; view. (Or at least <em>potentially</em> the properly &#8220;plumb line&#8221; view.)</p><p>However, he cites not only libertarian property rights and restitution, but also majoritarian sentiment as a proper basis for restitution to the taxpayer in the particular case of gov&#8217;t borders, which is an interesting reason for why a &#8220;plumb line&#8221; Hoppean argues in favor of some kind of government control of borders.</p><p>If we&#8217;re going to take a strictly property rights view, I think it would be just as &#8220;plumb line&#8221; for libertarians to argue <em>against </em>gov&#8217;t control of borders on the basis that they seek to provide an <em>easement</em> to immigrants, such as we would have in the absolutely stateless alternative universe.</p><p>Why the granting of easement may be construed to be even more &#8220;plumb line&#8221; libertarian, and is thus the argument taxpaying libertarians should be making to taxpaying nonlibertarians, compared to Mr. Kinsella&#8217;s argument, is that it logically concludes with <em>not</em> de facto advocating for gov&#8217;t agents to run about the borders rounding people up for not having the proper papers and sticking them into KBR corporate welfare detention centers&#8211;perhaps for months at a time&#8211;before being shoved back to the other side of the border and back into the piss poor poverty-ridden conditions they fled from. (Much of which was created to some degree by one-sided NAFTA trade policy favoring politically connected U.S. business interests at the expense of Latin American business interests.)</p><p>(BTW, I&#8217;m well aware that Mr. Kinsella does <em>not</em> advocate for or condone the gov&#8217;t actions/policies cited in the above paragraph. But as a &#8220;plumb line&#8221; anarcho-capitalist he knows full well that is frequently the logical conclusion of allowing some degree of gov&#8217;t monopoly control over any property, whatever rationale he may be offering for it. Thus he must recognize the consistency of this logic with regard to gov&#8217;t borders or else reduce himself to being a minarchist reformist on the immigration issue.)</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Wirkman Virkkala</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-185</link> <dc:creator>Wirkman Virkkala</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 00:39:54 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-185</guid> <description><![CDATA[Still, I feel their pain. These clueless welfare state advocates. They just wanna &quot;do good&quot;! Who&#039;da thunk it that abandoning freedom for coercion could have nasty consequences?(I must say that I often like taking the side of the immigrationally obsessed. See the blog The Lesson Applied for recent debate. The consequences of previous interventions are especially nasty when it comes to immigration.)]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still, I feel their pain. These clueless welfare state advocates. They just wanna &#8220;do good&#8221;! Who&#8217;da thunk it that abandoning freedom for coercion could have nasty consequences?</p><p>(I must say that I often like taking the side of the immigrationally obsessed. See the blog The Lesson Applied for recent debate. The consequences of previous interventions are especially nasty when it comes to immigration.)</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Wirkman Virkkala</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-184</link> <dc:creator>Wirkman Virkkala</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 00:37:20 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-184</guid> <description><![CDATA[The immigration question is one of those that open up the opportunity for libertarians to trot out one of the major theorems of Misesian interventionist analysis: For every intervention into the operations of a free society by coercive government, the policy&#039;s failures seem to require MORE interventions of a coercivist nature, thus ratcheting up illiberal government power at the expense of freedom.I guess the libertarian stance would be: See folks, this is the mess that your interventions have wrought. And whatever fix you propose, it, too, will likely fail, thus calling up another opportunity for more coercion in society. If you fix it, it will get worse. Until you let us provide OUR fix: Freedom.]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The immigration question is one of those that open up the opportunity for libertarians to trot out one of the major theorems of Misesian interventionist analysis: For every intervention into the operations of a free society by coercive government, the policy&#8217;s failures seem to require MORE interventions of a coercivist nature, thus ratcheting up illiberal government power at the expense of freedom.</p><p>I guess the libertarian stance would be: See folks, this is the mess that your interventions have wrought. And whatever fix you propose, it, too, will likely fail, thus calling up another opportunity for more coercion in society. If you fix it, it will get worse. Until you let us provide OUR fix: Freedom.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Punk Johnny Cash</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-182</link> <dc:creator>Punk Johnny Cash</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:30:45 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-182</guid> <description><![CDATA[&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;Anti-immigration libertarians are treading in dangerous waters http://trunc.it/7b2c3 #P2 #libertarian #Px #tlot #tcot&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Anti-immigration libertarians are treading in dangerous waters <a href="http://trunc.it/7b2c3" rel="nofollow">http://trunc.it/7b2c3</a> #P2 #libertarian #Px #tlot #tcot</span></span></span></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Michael Barnett</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-177</link> <dc:creator>Michael Barnett</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:36:56 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-177</guid> <description><![CDATA[The colossal welfare exists and that&#039;s one of the reasons some libertarians give for the necessity of restricted immigration i.e. since we have a massive welfare state, we must restrict immigration or else the government will go bankrupt.]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The colossal welfare exists and that&#8217;s one of the reasons some libertarians give for the necessity of restricted immigration i.e. since we have a massive welfare state, we must restrict immigration or else the government will go bankrupt.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Michael Barnett</title><link>http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/#comment-176</link> <dc:creator>Michael Barnett</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:32:16 +0000</pubDate> <guid isPermaLink="false">http://libertarianstandard.com/?p=1006#comment-176</guid> <description><![CDATA[&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_comment&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_twitter_username&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;topsy_trackback_content&quot;&gt;http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]></description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content"><a href="http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/" rel="nofollow">http://libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/16/anti-immigration-libertarians-are-treading-in-dangerous-waters/</a></span></span></span></p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>